The Game Changers Striving For Equality

Karen Dobres, Director of Lewes FC, and Jo Child, Founder of CoWomen, explain what it means to impact diversification and how it benefits everyone. 

Football has finally come home – thanks to the Lionesses’ 2-1 victory over Germany in the UEFA Women’s Euro 2022. We meet two local businesswomen who are working together to push for further equality in both sport and business. 

How did you get to the positions you are in now?

Karen: The first thing to say about Lewes FC is that it is 100 per cent community owned. That means that we have a board of directors elected from the ownership. So, once you become an owner, which is very easy – it’s just fifty pounds a year, three clicks away on our website – you can stand for election. I started to volunteer for the club in 2017 when it introduced the concept of gender equality to football by paying the women’s team the same as the men. 

I was interested in this and started to volunteer and to tell people, really communicate, about what sexism is doing in football – especially to women who may not necessarily like football because of the gender divide around the sport. I got so into it, wanting to really encourage women to come through the turnstiles to the women’s matches in solidarity with the cause. 

I started to get sponsors on board, but thought I might as well stand for election to become a director because I was already doing so much for the club and it gives me a bit more of a platform and authority. I became a director in 2019. In October, when we have our annual general meeting, I have to decide whether to re-stand or step down for a bit. 

Jo: There’s been quite a few drip fed issues of equality throughout my journey, I guess. When my marriage broke down in 2008, I went back to university, did a degree in event management, decided that I wanted to work in the events industry and gleefully applied for jobs in London thinking I was just going to walk into this amazing events job and that it would be the start of my new career. At least three different places turned me down and were quite clear that it was because I was a single mum. I don’t think it would happen now. 

Over ten years ago, one lady sat me in the interview and she said we don’t really like to employ a single mum because you will need time off for your children. That was the first kind of hint I had that there was a real issue – like if I’d have been a single dad, would I face the same issue?

Over the years after that, I bounced from job to job and then decided that the only option for me was to start my own events business. I delved into the wonderful world of networking and came across comments such as: ‘Has your husband helped you to get this started?’ and ‘Where have you had the help from?’ It just felt very insidious – you know. The assumptions made that women in business would have had to have help somewhere or that it was a hobby or side project. 

I struggled a little bit with networking in general. I just found it very corporate. I felt that it didn’t really feed into neuro-diversity either. I just felt it was very formal. Gradually, over time, what started as a very generic events business very quickly became something that needed to be for women – for women to feel confident and empowered in business and not feel the massive layers of imposter syndrome that many many women feel. 

Karen, how does it feel to be a woman involved in sport?

It’s hugely male-dominated and the disparities are vast. We can talk about what women are paid compared to what men are paid, but we should also ask are the pitches the women play on the same, or are their pitches inferior and much further away from the town that they’re representing making it harder for people to come to? 

When I first said I’d stand to be a director at Lewes FC, my friends were laughing at the thought, as I knew little about football, but people like me have to feel comfortable at a football ground. I have to feel I can be a director – we’re talking about diversity all over the shop and, you know, let’s just take action to do it! 

When I first became a director, there was one other women on the board and then she stepped down and I was the only woman for quite a while. It’s 50-50 now – that shows how we are progressing all the time at Lewes FC. But, back then, I was the only woman. 

The thing is, I have to keep valuing my difference – even though it sometimes was a real pain and I did feel ignored at times too. What I brought to the board was very different – like being concerned about whether we had designated breast feeding areas, chanting practice for women, and thinking about what would make someone like me feel comfortable and enjoy the atmosphere at the Dripping Pan. That was, I think, really useful and the good thing about it was that gate figures for both teams went up, quadrupling for the women in a couple of seasons – I kept thinking what I’m doing is good. 

Having said that, there are things that I remember I had to change about myself. One of the things I always say to women if they are going into male-dominated environments is ‘Just stay away from the kettle’ – don’t be the one who makes everyone tea! I have learned that you can say stupid things and it doesn’t matter. I’m not saying I haven’t had what we call ‘imposter syndrome’ but I don’t think it is a syndrome –  I think we are imposters! I am an imposter in football. I felt it and I still feel it sometimes. I think it’s a good thing to be because it diversifies the organisation.  

I would encourage more women into male bastions because, if Lewes Football Club is anything to go by, you become very successful economically and morally. You’re doing yourself a favour. 

Karen, why aren’t more clubs paying women players the same as men?

It is an excellent question because if you look at what’s happened to us at ‘Equality FC’ it’s been brilliant. We’ve got big sponsors and the women’s takings have gone up by 367 per cent, the men’s by 82 per cent. Both first teams sold out last season which is unheard of. We beat Liverpool. We’ve had so much success from equality. In fact, we are just having a new pitch laid ready for the new season. The grant for that, £750,000, has come because of the women’s team. The men will, of course, benefit from that. 

It just shows you how equality really is a rising tide, lifting not just one of the boats because both teams benefit. Why aren’t other clubs doing it if it’s working so well for us? It is very hard to run a football club; it’s a financial struggle. It’s also about the size of the club. It’s about what you prioritise, and you have to be quite compassionate to other football clubs – when they could be struggling just to make the men’s team work why would they start investing in a women’s team? 

If you look at bigger clubs like the Premier League clubs, although they are waking up and starting to invest (the Euros have been on and people have been watching – they aren’t going to ignore that), if you look at the kind of amounts they invest in the men’s side there just isn’t that kind of market yet for them to be doing that. 

There are changes they can make that don’t cost anything, like playing on the same pitch and with social handles and website prioritisation of the women’s team. Understandably, because the men’s market is so mature and the product is so mature, you’re not going to put the same money into women as the men – not like we did at Lewes because we are the size that we are and have teams in the leagues that they are in. 

It worked out that we could create that little bit of sunshine around the globe by putting the inspiration out there: valuing and resourcing the women exactly the same as the men. We now have 2,300 owners in 38 countries. 

Jo, tell us about some of the challenges you have faced. 

I think in the beginning the biggest challenge was not having a clue what I was doing. I’ve got no business background, no experience in marketing, in finance. I didn’t have any access to financial help and did not have the confidence, as a woman, to ask the questions or even know what questions I had. It was just starting on a very, very basic platform and being hyper-aware that I was a woman starting a business. 

What encouraged you to get over that? 

Jo: I just knew that it was something that I had to do. I didn’t see any other option at that time. I still think the mission is really important. I still think that women need representation and I just felt that I don’t know what I’m doing but the only way I will get to know what I’m doing is just to keep on this path. It took an awful lot of resilience and it was difficult.

I think along the way, another big challenge I had was that I was trying to do something that hadn’t been done before so I was trying to bring more joy as a priority into the lives of women. Women work really hard and they deserve to have this social life created for them. 

Another thing that I’ve noticed with women in business is that they feel this need to be serious, to be taken seriously, to present themselves seriously and, again, going to these events women were not smiling. I was thinking ‘Why not?’ 

A few years ago, there was a very big company and their manifesto was leaked on how women should and shouldn’t behave. It was wear heels a certain length, talk at a lower tone of voice, don’t laugh too high pitched. It’s trying to get that mission out there – that it’s okay to have joy and joy is concomitant with health. It’s so important. We’re in a time now where we practice mindfulness, yoga, meditation, and we’re really seeing the benefits of all of that breath work, but no one is prioritising joy in their life. 

Men have been conducting business on the golf course since time began and they’re having a whale of a time, so why is it that women feel the need to be so serious? Is there a perception that it’s men versus women? 

Jo: The idea of men versus women is such a trigger for people when it’s not men versus women in the first place. It doesn’t matter what product or service you’re providing, you’re going to have your demographic. It’s a shame that feminism has got such negative connotations attached to it because if you just strip it back to basics it simply means equality for men and women. Unfortunately, we have got to a point now where we’ve got extreme feminism. 

With any project, the pendulum always has to swing completely the other way before it can come back and rest in the middle and I think that’s what’s happening right now. We’re on this path for equality for women but that triggers people into thinking that it’s something that is not. 

Karen, you’ve done some volunteering around mental health. Can you tell us a bit about that?

I was a counsellor. I have also managed an internal counselling service for a major player in the music industry. 

Do you know the concept of the wounded healer? Most counsellors have had some wounds themselves that they’ve partly healed or completely healed and want to do the same for others. It’s what they know about. It’s where they feel comfortable and have a strong sense of purpose about making a difference in the world. Helping people feel not happier but have more access to themselves. 

Just being allowed to be yourself brings a bit of joy and is good for your health. It’s mental and physical. 

Jo, tell us about ADHD and diversity in mental health

I wasn’t diagnosed until I was 36, so I spent most of my adult working life not fitting and not really understanding why.

The first thing I’ll say about the way the ADHD brain works is that we have a very skewed circadian rhythm so the idea of going into an office and working nine to five Monday to Friday simply doesn’t work because there will be days where the brain fog is just so heavy. It is another reason why you are three times more likely to own your own business if you have ADHD because you work to your own hours. 

I was constantly losing jobs through no real full of my, just health. There’s a different brain chemistry with ADHD. The harder you try, if you are not managing burnout, you will make it worse because you do have things like memory muscles in your brain and they expand. The neurons talk to each other and everything develops over time. That doesn’t happen with ADHD. They actually frazzle and, if you don’t nurture them, you will get chronic headaches and make yourself poorly.

How is your work-life balance? 

Jo: For me, I think it’s acceptance of my health. Work-life balance is something that I think you have to make work for you. 

Karen: I believe it’s about knowing yourself and what works for you and, if you have the luxury of working for yourself or have a trusting employer, doing the hours that suit you, when they suit you. 

Covid helped us at least in that respect with working from home and having those flexible hours. We are all inter-connected. You know, if you are taking care of yourself, you are taking care of everyone else at the same time. 

• Karen and Jo both recognise that skills learned through sport aid business – time-keeping, team spirit and confidence are just a few.

Jo, what piece of advice would you give to your 18-year-old self?

Prioritise joy, allow yourself to be coachable and be fearless in what you believe in.

Karen, who inspires you?

Women footballers. They continually inspire me.

Co-Women membership is open now and ready to welcome more Sussex women in business. Membership offers a huge variety of joyful social events, networking opportunities and coworking days across Sussex, helping women who work hard to find their friends, clients and collaborators.

www.co-women.org